The original quote: "We will do anything short of sin to introduce people to God" (this is actually a paraphrase, a google search reveals about 5 different versions).
There seems to be confusion over the phrase "anything short of sin." To some it means, "we'll get as close to sin as we can," to others, it means "anything that's not sin is negotiable."
Hopefully we all agree that the philosophy of trying to get as close to sin as we can is not honoring to God.
I think the more accurate interpretation of the original quote is "Except for sin, we'll innovate wherever necessary, cast off tradition, and do whatever it takes to bring more people to Christ - all without sinning or disobeying God's Word."
If you're concerned that this philosophy is leading Christians astray (Irmler family) - what are the non-negotiables that you're concerned (or noticed) that are being lost, and why?
If you agree with this philosophy, what negotiables do you think may hold a church back from reaching more people for Christ?
Jesse, there is no point in debating this issue all I can pray is that the Holy Spirit through means of the Bible would help Christians understand the vital need for separation from the World to True Holiness.
PS Yep I am one of those Irmler Family guys :-)
Comment by Daniel Irmler - Jun 23, 2009 @ 12:08 PM
Doing anything short of sin, I would think might rather lead people astray rather than lead people to Christ? Yah, maybe some will get saved, but then what? They continue to live in sin because the somewhat ungodly example that lead them to Christ didn’t live a separated life to begin with? It seems to me that it would only create confusion to a new Christian. The Bible commands us to go and preach the gospel to every creature and also to teach them after they have accepted Christ as their Savior. So…what are you going to teach them after they’re saved if you’ve already corrupted the grounds for biblical standards?
And what about - 1 Thessalonians 5:22 says “Abstain from all appearance of evil.”
or 2 Corinthians 6:17 “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.”
We’ve heard it said - “you’ve got to be different to make a difference.”
Comment by Traci Thompson - Jun 23, 2009 @ 01:02 PM
Dan, thanks!
I, of course, disagree that there is no point to debating this issue - although I do agree and hope that the Holy Spirit will help us understand the need for True Holiness.
Dan, do you believe there is a need to innovate in order to reach people for Christ? If not, then why are you doing what you’re doing? If so, what do you believe can be innovated?
Unfortunately, Dan, some Christians, like the Pharisees, care more about tradition than God’s Word - and they get stuck in their traditional ways, while declining every year further into irrelevance, reaching fewer people for Christ. Wrongly assigning biblical importance to pews, suits, hymnals, choirs, etc these Christians foolishly assume the way they’re doing it is the way it’s always been done (obviously not true) and the way it should be done, regardless if they’re reaching anyone or not. Not only that, but they condemn those who actually care enough for outsiders to change what they’re doing. - all of this, sadly, based on feelings and not scripture.
Traci, why does this philosophy lead people astray? Where do you get the idea that a “somewhat ungodly example” lead them to Christ? - please explain (perhaps we’re talking about two different things?)
Comment by Jesse Phillips - Jun 23, 2009 @ 01:29 PM
I have no problem with “anything short of sin”—we all should have a problem with the “sin.” The heart of the matter, then is a Biblical understanding of sin. Lines are important things to draw, but they have to be clear in scripture.
If the argument is “what glorifies Christ” well then John 15 is pretty clear, the answer is “bearing much fruit.” Now, we’re also commanded to be holy and to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. This comes back to the original issue of what is sin, what are we separating from.
My current position on this subject is that we must be constantly testing the direction our lives and ministries are going according to scripture. I believe there’s sin in holding to tradition for tradition’s sake as well as in jumping on to the latest trend without considering how it will affect the lives of growing Christians.
Comment by Eric - Jun 23, 2009 @ 01:41 PM
So i agree with both comments posted before mine
I believe this will lead people astray rather than lead to salvation. Although it MAY get some saved, but what’s the cost?
As we stem from the methods that were used to get them influenced to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, they’ll be confused, or more accurately, they’ll be mislead. Because if you start deviating from a path that has been set according to God’s Word, even a little bit, you’re already walking down the wrong path of “philosophy” and doctrine. I put philosophy in quotes because our philosophy should only come from God’s Word and listening to what it instructs us to do in matters of spreading the Gospel and living out our lives as Christians, other philosophy is just worldly and misleading.
So by no means are we to tread on any ground that even hints at anything that even twists anything on what the Bible says. If its an issue that even raises the question, “I wonder if this is honoring to God.” We need to go back to the Word of God, our FOUNDATION, and stick to the old paths. This and constant prayer and obeying every impulse of the Holy Spirit we don’t need to worry about thinking up new ways to get people to Christ. Him dying on the cross is enough to work with.
Here are some verses I’ve used to back up what I’m saying:
Jeremiah 6:16 - “Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the GOOD way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls…”
2 Corinthians 6:14 - 17
Romans 6:1 & 2 - “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”
Comment by Luke Bacerra - Jun 23, 2009 @ 01:46 PM
oops, haha well i agree with traci and dan’s comments is what i mean..
i guess i took too long to write mine and people beat me to it..
haha
But yes i’d also like to add that all i can do is pray the Holy Spirit works in peoples hearts about this issue
Comment by Luke Bacerra - Jun 23, 2009 @ 01:52 PM
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I don’t think Jesse is advocating going against scripture in anyway (that would be in that sin category). (I think) he’s suggesting that traditions not mandated by scripture shouldn’t get in the way of reaching unsaved people.
I are a “fundamentalist” :) and I think sometimes we tend to Biblical-ize things that aren’t necessarily clear in scripture. If this argument is to continue intellectually, these terms and positions need to be defined.
Comment by Eric - Jun 23, 2009 @ 02:00 PM
Leave it to Christians to argue about how to win people to Christ.
Comment by Darryl Buckle - Jun 23, 2009 @ 03:16 PM
@ Luke
What exactly do you mean by old paths? Do you mean traditions of men such as music styles, suits in church, bug wooden pulpits in the center of the platform, using hymnals etc.? Or do you mean the historic, biblical doctrines of Christianity? http://vintagechristian.tumblr.com/post/123778003/the-vintage-journey
@ Traci
There is no such thing as a somewhat ungodly example. You either are godly or you are not. What are the specific corrupting elements that you are hinting at? I don’t
@ Jessi
Good thoughts man!
@ Eric
Thank you for your urging to be specific in this discussion. Generalities help no one.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 05:10 PM
@Daniel, perhaps you’re right - this discussion doesn’t seem to get anywhere.
@Luke, @Traci
I totally agree with you guys that deviating from the path, or tricking non-believers into becoming Christians will be counter productive and not produce strong disciples.
However, that is not at all, not at all what I’m trying to discuss. I thought I was clear about that on top.
What I’m trying to ask is, what innovations do you have a problem with and why? Or, what behavior/strategy have you seen that is wrong/concerning that has stemmed from this philosophy?
Comment by Jesse Phillips - Jun 23, 2009 @ 05:27 PM
Pro 23:10 Remove not the old landmark; (let’s be careful about the anything short of sin is negotiable,)
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight,
This last week I started a new kid program, redid our church web page, and am writing this from camp ware I am taking my teen’s rock climbing, paint balling and fishing. I am all for creating opportunities to make a difference (Jude 22). But the Bible is very clear that there is a line “love not the world nether the thing that are in the world” You can only make a difference if you are different. And God tell us to not only get rid of sin but anything that can slow us down in the Christian life.
Comment by Caleb Irmler - Jun 23, 2009 @ 05:34 PM
@Caleb
Thanks, Caleb. I agree!
However, what do you mean by quoting “remove not the old landmark” - should we not have created pews, then? Should we not be reading the bible in English? Wycliffe and others were persecuted for translating the bible into English, for goodness sake!
What do you mean by the old landmark? what qualifies as an old landmark? Very many things you do in your church today are new innovations compared to the early church.
Please be specific and explain what you’re wary of. I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that I, we, with you, DO NOT advocate sinning to “reach people.”
Comment by Jesse Phillips - Jun 23, 2009 @ 05:45 PM
@Caleb I’m curious as to those “landmarks” as well. Unless these things can be clearly delineated from scripture, then there’s nothing of substance being debated here. If it’s not Bible then it’s just preference.
(As a personal confession perhaps) I’m more worried about the statement “I will do anything comfortable to bring people to Christ” than “I will do anything short of sin to bring people to Christ.”
Comment by Eric - Jun 23, 2009 @ 06:50 PM
What has happened here is amazing! Lots of people from all over the place have put in their 2 cents about whether we should try new methods or not to reach the lost ( and some have said that we shouldn’t trick people into being saved ones or removing landmarks, even though that isn’t what the purpose of this debate is!) Here’s the deal:
This series started when someone disagreed with something that a Godly man said, ummm why would you follow someone or an organization that you obviously disagree with? Why would you cause feelings to get hurt and people to get upset and in a heated debate over something that is completely trivial if we go just look at Scripture? Why?!?!? So one family is banding together now to back each other up and defend themselves which is good, defend yourselves, but is this entire argument even necessary? And the other side is defending their viewpoint too!
What does a non-Christian do when he sees a post like this? Does he say, “yay they’re trying to come up with new ways to reach me”? or does he say “this is exactly why I would never be a Christian like those in-fighters there on that catalyst blog”? Where’s the doctrine behind both sides? All I’ve seen are preferences, most of which are laughable because the 80s are gone, yet several people in particular on this blog are all about keeping the wood pulpits front and center and nice suits and ties for all! haha
I’m not taking sides, just expressing some concerns.
Comment by George - Jun 23, 2009 @ 07:02 PM
Preferences… that is what is at stake here!! This war will be waged in the blogshphere not for the souls of men but for preferences…. ahhhhhh!!!
Nothing like preferences to divide us when we frankly need more than ever to stick together. One group saying that another’s methods are wrong when they themselves try new things is astounding. If I want a drummer and a colored light in my church I can. There is nothing in the Bible that says I can’t. It DOES NOT violate doctrine or scripture.
If I want to have exposed beams, red carpet and ornate chandeliers in my church that does not violate scripture or doctrine. The question is does my method fulfill the Biblical command to “go into all the world and make disciples?”
If methods and preferences never change then lets go back, way back to the first century with psalms being sung (hymns were new not that long ago), no complete cannon of scripture and meet in houses and synagogues. Just curious… how ancient of a landmark do you need?
The commonality, the glue that holds it all together is doctrine that is actually found in God’s Word and a passion for souls. That has remained constant throughout the ages.
We all have different preferences and God uses both the guy with the drummer and the guy with the chandelier. To say that either can’t be used by God or is a violation of scripture borders on arrogant.
My hope is that we can all have a little grace with each other and the guys with exposed beams can pass out a track with the guy with a colored light. Because there is nothing like division and strife to hasten the death of evangelism.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 07:10 PM
As I have picked up reading these opinions just now, my response is pretty simple: When it comes to reaching the lost, we all need a guiding principle. For some, that principle is, “anything short of sin.” To me, that principle is foolish as it does not take into account what is wise, what is effective, and what will ultimately produce, not just converts, but growing disciples of Christ. It has the tendency to throw prudence to the wind and will likely embrace every fad for the sake of staying “mainstream.”
Churches and individuals who embrace this “anything short of sin” philosophy are too quick to ditch their ties for tattered jeans, their Christian music for carnal moshpits, and their preaching for pop-psychology. They follow every new idea for church growth from coffee shops in their worship centers to shot glasses for new visitors. They even cancel their Sunday services and tell their congregations “Don’t go to church. Be the Church.” Though some of these ideas may sound attractive, innovative, and “short of sin,” they do not result in real life change. The voices of dozens of individuals I have personally talked to who have come out of such churches testifies to this fact immensely.
Therefore, I propose to you a new guiding principle when it comes to reaching the lost: Anything short of sin that is uncompromisingly Scriptural, unblameably holy, and unquestionably wise, that is not restricted by tradition nor driven by fad, that is not measured by short term growth but long term results, and that interminably seeks to exalt the name of Christ, emulate the Holiness of God, evangelize the lost in sin, and edify the body of believers.
Comment by Jacques - Jun 23, 2009 @ 07:12 PM
Jacques,
Well spoken. I like where you are headed with your statements but I am afraid they are tinged with bias and preference!!
Are you saying that it is wrong to wear jeans at church? Is it unbiblical to have a coffee shop in my church? Sorry I will have to close that this week! I am worried because my church has a Sunday service only. I am curious about where it says in the Bible that you have to have three services a week or is the magic number seven?
Frankly I would rather have my people out in the community building evangelistic relationships with people who are lost rather than be at church every night of the week. Sunday service is important, don’t get me wrong but getting outside the walls and being the hands and feet of Christ is the only way to reach people and show compassion.
It is more important to be a Christian than do Christian actions, more important to BE the church than simply be at church.
Like I said good thoughts!!!!! Just be careful to make your points from actual Biblical principles and not from your bias or preference. I think all of us are interested most in what the Bible actually says on these matters.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 07:34 PM
I understand the Bible teaches to be all things to all men, but this has been taken to the extreme. The primary reason I believe we have different views of what sin is, is simply because the standard has been changed. Different Bibles have different interpretations. With that we interpret what makes up sin. One thing I DO know is that God does not change. There is no variableness in Him. He is the same HOLY. The issue of separation from the world stems back before fundamentalism. I believe God had His standard in eternity past. In creation HE separated the light from darkness. We find God destroying mankind in the Flood. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. With that, we find the first example of getting close to sin, but not partaking. The Bible says that Lot pitched his tents toward Sodom and Gomorrah. We was not there, but he was as close as he could get while still being in fellowship with Abraham. His direction determined his downfall. And though he was not a partaker of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, he had a bad testimony, and the entire area was destroyed because God was not able to find a group of righteous people. Worldly “evangelism” is not a good testimony for the LORD, and to get as close as possible will eventually lead to destruction!
And by the way, KJB1611
Comment by Estevan Montoya - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:18 PM
Correction:
“He was not there, but he was as close as he could get while still being in fellowship with Abraham.”
Comment by Estevan Montoya - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:22 PM
Ah the cool refreshing breeze of generalities - no one can answer a specific question and yet again another discussion veers of course.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:26 PM
@montoya So are you saying that I can’t be an almost homosexual to reach the other homosexuals and that’s sinful or cause I haven’t gone all the way I’m still safe?! DUDE!!! For reals this debate is not about going as close to sin as possible, it’s not about saying hey I’ll go kill someone to show someone else that life is short! This discussion is about how we must do everything in our power to reach a lost and dying world. If that means that we have to say, hey, let’s try some newer songs to liven up our dead “worship” then let’s do it!
That’s not sin. That’s not compromise!
Like @vintagechristian has said, let’s get back to the original issue! We’re not talking about walking the line seeing how close we can get to “sinning.” I dunno what version the KJB1611 is, but sounds to me like you might have compromised and gone with something new and fresh for a change instead of sticking to your guns and your church that runs the same numbers consistently and has dead worship!!!!
Comment by Jackie - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:34 PM
@vintagechristian that is the problem here with most people that get riled up and post all kinds of stuff about not removing the landmarks and not compromising and stick to the KJV1611 all the way.
Would someone please tell me to my face from the side that hates on all churches that have “compromised” what is wrong with having one actually meaningful service on Sunday or with having a coffee shop in your building somewhere, wait doesn’t your bastion of old paths have a coffee shop? Someone please show me from Scripture (what version is up to you) a verse and show me a specific example where the above is wrong!?!?!?!
Comment by Someone who is tired of people going off on random - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:43 PM
@Jackie If Lot was ok in his position, then why did he not reach those around him? I believe in doing everything I can to PREACH the Gospel. Singing is not what God ordained! Concerts are not what God ordained! new songs are not what God ordained! It was old fashioned Preaching that God ordained!
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (you consider us foolish because we believe the Bible?)
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (not a singer, concert, or things of that nature)
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
You my friends have been turned to doctrines of devils.
Comment by Estevan Montoya - Jun 23, 2009 @ 08:46 PM
@estevan… yes you are right we are filled with doctrines of devils that’s why we have thousands and thousands of young people come to catalyst every year and leave charged up and on fire for Jesus and go back and make a difference in their schools and churches.. Yep you are completely right were just full of devils teachings and stuff. Why don’t you comment on your KJB1611 filled blog and rail against pants on women and talk about how your pulpit needs to be made of solid wood and that you must have 5 to thrive and stop trying to change people on a blog where people that love Jesus are trying to do their best to reach other for Jesus. Stop trying to discourage them! I’m sure there are lots of blogs you could write on about preaching from the KJB1611 and stuff.
Were just trying to do what Jesus has called us to do and we will not back down from what Jesus has said, though it uses MANY methods and ways out there.
Comment by Jackie - Jun 23, 2009 @ 09:15 PM
Estevan, Estevan, Estevan (shakes head)
Just putting scripture out there does not answer the question. You should know better than that. The Bible does say much about music, the book Psalms is all about bringing worship and praise to God through song. We were created to bring glory to God for that is our purpose. How do we do that?
I think your post lacks foundation and is yet another rabbit trail attempting to generalize your way out of a non argument. To claim that we have been turned to doctrines of devils spits in the face of our forefathers who were innovative enough to seek out religious freedom in a place called America. In every generation there have been people who have been willing to step out and bear the criticism of their peers to do a new thing for God.
Somebody please give me specifics, please!!!
Are jeans in church wrong, is a musical instrument on stage a sin? Is it wrong to have a coffee shop in my church? Can I have 1 service or 7? Do they have to be the same service or can I have 2 uniques services on Sunday? What other modern church methods would you include?
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 09:19 PM
Just so you know, I am an evangelist. I have been preaching for 8 years. I was saved from a lifestyle of sin. Let me first ask you some simple questions:
1. Where in the Bible does it say that we should not take LSD?
2. I know the Bible teaches against wine, but why is beer bad?
3. Where is the line drawn between holiness and sinfulness
4. How do you balance spirit and truth?
5. Are the"grey” area’s ok?
Now to specifically answer some of your questions
1. Worship - Jesus stated we must worship in spirit and truth. Many over emphasize “spirit” and claim it as music. I am not against music, guitars, drums, and any other instrument. I am against how they are played. Sex can be right or wrong, it depends on how it is consumed. In marriage, fine, outside…wrong. Satan was once an angel of God. His position was somewhat of a choir director. He KNOWS music, and what our flesh likes. Most people confuse fleshly emotions for the spiritual. The balance comes from the truth contained. Most CCM style music is not very specific when it comes the Jesus Christ. Most songs are very general, and do not contain much truth. Most songs are about feelings. That is why I like hymns, they have truth with a balance.
2. Music - Would you agree that when a person is born again, there is a change from one life to a life with Christ? The Bible makes it very clear that old things are passed away. The Bible teaches in the Psalms that we are placed on a solid rock the moment of Salvation. It also teaches that He puts “new” song in our hearts. When I got saved, I had a lot songs from the old life that had to go. I was into rock and I was also a break dancer.
I did not immediatly come to the standards that I currently hold, but one thing I know is that music has a stronghold on those who listen. I had a hard time getting it out of my life. When I was introduced to CCM, I found that it sounded like the old lifestyle that I was saved from. The rock music I listened to was filled with death. I had several songs that had no words at all, but the presence of evil was evident. The CCM song I heard sounded like a group called “Nine Inch Nails”, then I heard another song, it was almost the same as “Pink Floyd”. These were songs I listened to when on drugs. That bothered me, because the rock music filled with death sounded just like the rock music I heard from the CCM crowd. So I studied, and I found it has a LOT to do with the beat. The Bible commands to be Spirit-filled in Ephesians 5. Right after the command to be filled, we find a direct connection concerning music. “Songs, hymns, and spiritual songs, making MELODY in your hearts” The primary reason music corrupted is because of the beats. Beats are not to over ride the melody. We are to make melody, not beats. The reason is because beat (pattern) found in rock music has it’s origins in paganism. These beats and chants (like those found in some CCM songs) are the same style found in those from voodoo, paganism, native american pow-wows, and the like. That being said, the beat is what corrupts, and putting a beat to “Christian” lyrics does not matter to demons.
For the songs that do not emphsize the beat normally are very sensual. This sensuality has its roots in the R&B style of music. R&B has its roots in jazz. The vocal sliding and sensuality were used to promote immorality in south during the 30’s and 40’s. The goal was to SOUND sensual. So to take good lyrics and put them to sounds of sensuality defeats the purpose, because ears might one thing, but the sound effects what the body feels. This causes a sensual feeling. This is where the balance is lost. The overemphasis takes place, and what is considered spiritual is really fleshly.
3. As for using things to reach people. God has always ordained preaching to reach people. The principle here is this, you must keep them with how you win them. If it took a concert to get them in, then when the concerts are gone, they will be too. If you win them with Bible preaching, you find that remain faithful. Those reached in concerts may continue in churches of like style, but how do they live outside the doors of the church? I spoke to a man from a charismatic CCM church, and he was “praising” God, and in the same conversation he cussed.
——James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
That was not the first time I have seen this. I am not saying fundamentalist are perfect, but straight preaching handles a lot of those issues.
I understand that I do not know it all, but I have desire to honor a HOLY God.
Comment by Estevan Montoya - Jun 23, 2009 @ 10:13 PM
Thank you for so thoroughly sharing your preferences and viewpoints. That is your experience and how you were reached and how you interpret things. You also did not answer the questions…
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 10:54 PM
Thank you Jackie for your excellent and pointed statements.
This discussion turns once again to saying one person’s methods are wrong while mine are right. My pulpit is bigger than your pulpit. My instruments are more spiritual than your instruments. Let’s cherry pick one weak Christian in a movement and label it as “of the devil.”
I have many songs that our friends on the far right would consider contemporary but lift my heart to God in ways no organ or piano based special music does. But that is my preference and the way I respond to God. If others prefer a different type of music that helps them respond to God then Praise be to His Name.
We shouldn’t pretend one denomination has a monopoly on right methods or music.
If that is our view we have a pride problem, which by the way God hates. That can be found in every version including the KJB.
God is generic where He chose to be generic and very specific where He chose to be specific.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 11:08 PM
You have not answered my questions either. Let me ask you something else.
Why, since false Bible translations and modern Christianity, have we not seen any real revivals? Some claim that the CCM industry is experiencing revival, but they are not real revivals. The revival of times past resulted in a nation turning to God. Bars were shut down, movie houses were closed, great lifestyle changes were made in the course of a few months with results that lasted years.
If your methods are not wrong then why do we not see the results from times past. Bars are still open, teens are still pregnant, drugs are still a problem, we have a reprobate leader that needs the Christ of the Bible.
I gave specific examples from Scripture, and you did not heed. You have truly had your conscience seared from the truth and the only one that can change you is God, and even then you might not bend your knee until judgement day.
Comment by Estevan Montoya - Jun 23, 2009 @ 11:31 PM
I was looking for question marks in there… sorry it was a bit looong!!! LOL
I think I know what you are getting at. You expect there to be an old fashioned revival with old fashioned methods in a modern age. To say that God has to work through certain methods and that He has to bring a 1800s revival to a 21st century post-modern culture is an assumption I would personally be afraid to make. I trust God is working right now and I am thankful for every work of God that is seeing 1 or 1000 come to Him. God often surprises us by not fitting into the boxes we confine Him too.
Do not mistake me. My heart is broken for our country and our world. They need a Savior. But in such a desperate time it is sad some are unwilling to do whatever it takes to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!
Frankly the last part of your post is both rude, insulting and Biblically questionable. You are not making a righteous or informed judgement. You are assuming because I do not agree with you or your personal view of scripture that I am deceived and you have essentially labeled me as unsaved. Sadly you are misinformed and incorrect in both your judgement and and your statement.
I hope you will learn some Christian grace in future before you label others and bring reproach to the name of Christ.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 23, 2009 @ 11:52 PM
@Vintage Christian and friends,
When you study out the word worship, it simply means to ascribe worth to something. When we worship God, we are ascribing worth to Him. Most of the contemporary songs make a person “feel” good. Nowadays, it’s popular to do what “feels” good to me, Feeding my flesh. In most churches today, they are bringing in rock bands for concerts to appeal to the younger generation. They do this to “reach the lost.” But do they realize they are most likely hindering someone from coming to Christ, rather than drawing them to Christ? An unsaved person will look at the lifestyles and the mannerisms of these church-goers and think, “What makes them different from me? Why would I want to become a Christian when the Christians are just like me?” We, as Christians ,are supposed to be an example, we are to be IN the world, but not OF the world. In I Timothy 4:16, the Bible says, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the DOCTRINE, continue in them; for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” Some may think that living like the world and “relating” to the world will help the lost come to Jesus…ok, do you realize that the way you win them will be the way that you’ll have to keep them? Ok, so let’s say you use a concert to win a lost person, it’s exciting, it’s fun, yeah…what happens when the fun and excitement fade out? What happens when church isnt fun or exciting for this Christian anymore? We see it a lot these days..when church isnt “fun” anymore, people just leave and go find something else. So would you rather use the method of leading a lost to Christ with your innovative methods and have it be a temporary thing? Or would you rather do it the old fashioned way, letting the Holy Spirit lead, and produce more soul winners for Christ?
Do you realize that it is easier for someone of the world to drag you down spiritually, than for you to lift up someone of the world? The Bible says in I Corinthians 15:33-34, “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to rightousness and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” In this verse, communication is referring to lifestyle. Evil lifestyles corrupt good people.
Comment by Julie - Jun 23, 2009 @ 11:57 PM
First, let me comment on the statement by Craig Groeschel. According to CatalystLeader, Craig is quoted as saying “We will do anything short of sin to introduce people to God.” In and of itself this statement is not wrong because according to I John 3:4a, “sin is the transgression of the law.” You are either sinning or you aren’t, there is no middle ground. I don’t believe that Craig’s intention is to sin in the propagating of the Gospel and if we follow the Lord’s command in Galatians 5:16, “walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh” as we seek to lead people to Christ then it would be impossible for sin to take place. It comes back to the problem of the man and not the method.
However, I do believe that making a statement such as the one afore mentioned is dangerous because it can lead to the discussion that we see before us. My hope is that Craig is not offended by the comments being put forth by those with differing views. James 3:5 teaches us that, “the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!” Often our words can be misconstrued and lead to some unnecessary conflicts between fellow believers. May we take a lesson from David, a man after God’s own heart, who said, “I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me (Psalm 39:1).”
Second, are we really discussing the danger of doing something for the Lord and in the process sinning. I didn’t think that was the problem we were dealing with in Christendom today. The Bible teaches that there will be a falling away, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” II Thessalonians 2:3
In my years of ministry I have yet to experience a time when Christians were lining up at the door of the church to serve. Jesus said in Luke 10:2, “the harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few:” if the labourers are so few then are we more concerned about those who are sinning by accident even as they seek to serve the Lord or those who are sinning by not doing what they know is right. James 4:17, “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Forgive me if I am more focused right now with encouraging Christians that aren’t involved in the cause of Christ to get involved then analyzing the methods of those who are serving (whether in error or not).
We all must understand that we don’t seek the approval of man but the approval of God and this is the issue that God dealt with Cain in Genesis 4:7, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” In the event that our conscience or God’s Word convicts us of sin as we seek to serve Him then let us follow the example of David in Psalms 51:3 who, “I acknowledge my transgressions; and my sin is ever before me.” and learn how to avoid sin in the future in Psalm 119:11, “They word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” I believe that Christians sin more by omission (Romans 7:19) than by commission. If we really want to avoid sinning as we serve the Lord or fulfill the statement that Craig has made then we simply need to know our Bible better.
Thirdly, I would say that Timothy Stewart’s original statement (Comment #1) hits the nail on the head. We are looking for innovative and creative ways to reach people without compromising our personal standards and convictions. Separation is contact without contamination and Jesus was the perfect example of this by being in contact with sinners without participating in sin. To say that Jesus would walk into a nightclub seems to be fairly radical and an assumption that I choose not to make, but would He make the church into one? I think not! The danger in using these innovative and creative ways is that we (the leaders) can lose focus on our goal of encouraging people in their walk with God.
Everything rises and falls on leadership according to Lee Roberson; therefore we as the leaders must make sure that our methods do not hinder our message. Colossians 1:18 teaches, “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” Sometimes our method can be so elaborate and exciting that people lose focus on why we are doing/performing it. At the same time we can be so boring and out of touch with modern society that we have no idea what people are facing in today’s culture. Therefore as we seek to be separate without being irrelevant from the world let us consider the real issue we face as leaders, being balanced. God is clear in Proverbs 11:1, “A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.” That is precisely what Job requested after going through a tremendous training period by the Lord in Job 31:6, “Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity.” As leaders, we must realize that our knowledge of the Bible, personal purity, and integrity before God will ultimately determine whether He chooses to use us for His glory.
In Conclusion: As we consider how we can effectively propagate the Gospel we must understand according to I Corinthians 3:6, 7, “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.” This promise in the Scriptures is not an excuse for us not to be creative, relevant or innovative but a reminder that when we, in a clear conscience, have done all that we possibly can to share the Gospel then must leave the rest of the saving and growing to God. It is a lack of faith in God that would lead us to begin using worldly methods to fulfill responsibilities that are rightly God’s.
Comment by Daystar Ministries - Jun 24, 2009 @ 12:26 AM
I always find it amusing when people make blanket statements about Christian Contemporary Music or modern churches. When they do I shake my head and laugh because they clearly don’t know what they are talking about.
Who says CCM is shallow? Most people who claim this have very little exposure to it. Anyone can make blanket statements about a style they don’t like (which is what this is all about - preferences), but please don’t judge something solely on the basis of that’s what you’ve been taught. I am willing to bet their are some songs in CCM that may be “shallow” or “feel-good” but since when is music supposed to make us feel the opposite of good? Isn’t music in church supposed to uplift our spirits and hearts toward God?
What purpose does your music serve in your church? I have been exposed to both sides of the coin having grown up in a conservative church and home. I have been in churches where the music was conservative, and in churches where it was lively. Often times I found that the songs sung in the lively service were more scriptural that the conservative ones. This is not a biased judgment either. Many songs that conservative churches sing are about the Christian experience rather than the Creator. That is why many songs have been written in the genre of Worship songs, or Praise and Worship songs. Worshipping Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior, instead of singing how hard the Christian life is. I am not saying that hymns and older songs are bad - there are MANY scripturally sound ones, I am merely giving my perspective.
I have carefully allowed the Holy Ghost to examine my music and guess what? I still listen to CCM. (Yes I am a Christian and not a devil-worshiper for those who began to wonder…) I find that what I listen to does not contradict scripture - Col. 3:16.
Go grab your hymnal or your Southern Gospel songbook and honestly evaluate EVERY song. Which ones have doctrinal errors, which ones don’t mention Jesus, which ones are repetitious etc…?
Above all be honest with God and yourself. If music with a beat causes you to stumble or think about an old lifestyle, then by all means, abstain from it. I will not push my preferences on anyone - they are personal preferences that I will be judged by God on - not by anyone else (estevan). I have no such baggage, and will continue to be open to Holy Spirit leading on this matter.
Comment by Vintage Christian - Jun 24, 2009 @ 05:04 AM
Anything short of sin to get the gospel out is sin. Why? Because it’s disobedience to the method God has specifically prescribed as THE way to introduce people to Jesus. You very clever culture warriors who are trying so hard to be relevant - guess what? You’re irrelevant! Your phony rock concerts and fake coolness is the kind of thing that you think the world demands in order to get their attention, much like the “signs” for the Jews and “wisdom” for Greeks. But God didn’t call you to use any method short of sin to get the gospel to these people, he called you to preach the Word! If that seems foolish to the worldlings you’re trying to be like, so be it! It’s God’s method! And by claiming to need other methods short of sin, is to insult the wisdom of God through the method of preaching that He has ordained:
Corinthians 1:21-23 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Most of these kinds of worldly ministries do not have clear, faithful, expository, powerful preaching because they are so worried about offending people. But Paul didn’t care about that. He preached the gospel because IT has power that all your sound equipment, disco lights, and torn jeans don’t have!
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
You don’t need to find methods “short of sin” to reach the lost. You need the power of God and that comes only through preaching the cross!
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
So, put down your plastic utensils that you all are trying to innovate and pick up the Sword!
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 25, 2009 @ 02:43 PM
@william Look, you’re not helping either side. Your argument makes no sense. If something is “short of sin” in other words, *not* sin then how is “disobedience to the method…” as you say? What is this method? How can you definitively say one (again, non-sinful) method is better or less-sinful than another? (No one is even saying you’re wrong yet, just that you’re not being specific.)
Also, you sort of say that preaching the Word is the accepted method for reaching people. No one is disagreeing on this point!! The phrase in question is really about getting people to the church and getting any preconceived notions about Christians out of the way so they can hear the Word in the first place.
So what would be helpful to this discussion is specifics. What specific, definable methods are not acceptable ? Is it music written in the past decade? Is it casual dress? The term “worldly” is very subjective. Can you quantify it from scripture? What do *you* mean by it and can you defend it *clearly* with scripture?
By the scriptures you quote you suggest that acceptable methods would be automatically weird and rejected by the world, is this our goal in developing ways to reach the lost? Could it be that the preaching of the cross itself is what would be counted as foolishness and that 1Cor 1:18 doesn’t really speak to methods?
Comment by Eric - Jun 25, 2009 @ 03:24 PM
I wrote that previous comment in a bit of a hurry so there’s a few typos, but I want to reiterate this point:
It seems like the side against “anything short of sin” is arguing that the litmus test for acceptable outreach methods is that it would be “foolishness” to the world. Any method that doesn’t bother the world would not be of “the old path” and unacceptable. Is this incorrect?
If I’m wrong, can you point to a precedent in scripture of a method that 1: is clearly defined and obvious in the epistles, 2: was deemed by the world as “foolish” (again we’re talking methods, not preaching subjects like “the cross of Christ”) and 3: that your church still practices today exactly as it was in the first century?
I’m not claiming to have an answer to the above question, just trying to help this discussion become more intelligent and constructive.
Comment by Eric - Jun 25, 2009 @ 04:09 PM
Eric,
The point is that preaching the gospel is the only method given by God.
Music is NEVER a method used for reaching the lost.
The reason why is because that there is nothing that you or I can do that will overcome the natural sinful hostility in a sinners heart because he is at enmity with God. However, a wrong view of human depravity is a contributing factor to these ideas of reaching the lost. We think that there is someway to prep them to accept Christ. They hate God and would have no thought of God in their minds.
You said:
“The phrase in question is really about getting people to the church and getting any preconceived notions about Christians out of the way so they can hear the Word in the first place.”
Where is the worship service a means of evangelism found in scripture? Last I checked, only Christians gathered to worship. In fact, God kept unbelievers out of the congregation in Acts, when He killed Ananias and Saphira for being fakes….that event put the rest of the people outside the church that they were trying to reach in fear! Yet the church grew.
Worship is something that the unsaved cannot do.That’s like inviting a criminal to come visit the police station. Why would he want to do that? Unless you turn the police station into a place that looks and feels and acts like his criminal element. Which is exactly what modern Christianity is doing. It’s a totally wrong conception of evangelism! We scatter to evangelize we gather to worship, we don’t gather to evangelize. Of course, this doesn’t bring in big crowds of people that get noticed by Christianity Today and get their pastors invited to speak at big venues.
You said:
“It seems like the side against “anything short of sin” is arguing that the litmus test for acceptable outreach methods is that it would be “foolishness” to the world.”
You miss the point completely. There is only one method. Preaching the gospel. The message of the gospel is an offense. It angers the sinner. There is no way to make it acceptable and when you do try to make it more acceptable, the only way to do that is to compromise the message. Sin and its consequences must be downplayed and watered down.
Here’s the method…very simple: Preaching this message of the gospel (given that you got the message right) is done by a believer by declaring the words of God with his mouth, using language. That’s it.
It’s that simple. Just tell people the gospel. What more do you want? In Acts 8:1 believers went all over the place preaching the Word, not gathering thousands of people in a stadium, entertaining them, and then some cool-dude preacher with spiked hair get up and very sweetly tell them a watered down message that would make them feel good about Jesus.
The early Christians just simply declared that men were sinners, condemned by God, going to hell, and that God loved them by providing a substitute for them who took their punishment for them. If they would repent and believe, they could be saved.
This message brought about many different responses: Acts 17:32-34 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:
Three basic responses: mocking, indifference, and believing.
Don’t think that using some other method is going to eliminate the first two
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 25, 2009 @ 05:34 PM
I’ll add one more thing about getting pre-conceived ideas about Christians out of their minds - You can’t change that by trying to act like them. They have a natural antithesis against us. In their minds, we are their enemies because of what we represent. To make matters worse, Christians live such hypocritical lives, that we do not adorn the gospel.
If you want to make Christians appear non-Christian, you’re hurting the gospel. If our image is bad, then we need to change it by following the Bible!! Not Bill Hybles’ research data.
Here’s how you get the wrong ideas of Christians out of their minds, it’s a lot harder than coloring your hair and playing the music that sinners like:
Titus 2:7-10 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. 9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 25, 2009 @ 05:39 PM
Jessie said: “like the Pharisees, care more about tradition than God’s Word - and they get stuck in their traditional ways, while declining every year further into irrelevance, reaching fewer people for Christ. Wrongly assigning biblical importance to pews, suits, hymnals, choirs, etc these Christians foolishly assume the way they’re doing it is the way it’s always been done (obviously not true) and the way it should be done, regardless if they’re reaching anyone or not. Not only that, but they condemn those who actually care enough for outsiders to change what they’re doing. - all of this, sadly, based on feelings and not scripture.”
Ok, I just read through all the comments and I’ll respond to a few of them. Jessie, I agree that tradition is not the authority, the Bible is. I also agree that those material elements you mentioned are not vital. Yet, I would turn it around and also say that many of the modern “methods” are based on feelings and not scripture either. When Rick Warren can compromise the gospel by saying to Charlie Gibson: “I’m putting my bet on Jesus” instead of answering whether or not Muslims, Jews and Buddhists will go to hell for not believing in Jesus, we have a big problem. Especially since this organization endorses this man. His compromise is the natural result of trying so hard not to offend people, so when the offense of the gospel comes up, he’s ashamed. I personally don’t care what kind of pants you wear, what instruments you use to sing praise songs or what kind of pulpit you use. I care that the the underlying philosophy is true to scripture, and much of contemporary Christianity is pragmatic, not Biblical. I don’t care if it works, if it gets results or if it’s popular. I care that it’s faithful to the Lord. The gospel is always relevant because it really matters. What kind of pants you wear doesn’t.
Estevan said:
“Why, since false Bible translations and modern Christianity, have we not seen any real revivals?”
Because God is sovereign in giving or holding back revival, not Bible versions!
Estevan said:
“Some claim that the CCM industry is experiencing revival, but they are not real revivals. The revival of times past resulted in a nation turning to God. Bars were shut down, movie houses were closed, great lifestyle changes were made in the course of a few months with results that lasted years.”
Yes, the CCM industry is a sham, but so is most of fundamentalism too. Why are they not experiencing revival since they are supposed to have all the right “Standards”? It seems to me that they are just as worldly as the CCM industry with their hero worship, pragmatic evangelism methods, legalism, and watered down easy believism gospel.
Estevan said:
“If your methods are not wrong then why do we not see the results from times past. Bars are still open, teens are still pregnant, drugs are still a problem, we have a reprobate leader that needs the Christ of the Bible.”
Because we live in a sinful world, that’s why. The early church lived in such a culture too. It didn’t change overnight. In fact, it never changed, the Roman empire fell apart. Did the early church fail?
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 25, 2009 @ 06:11 PM
@william —Thanks for responding.
I was actually hoping someone might say that preaching is the only Biblically mandated method for evangelism. I agree entirely, and I think everyone else here would too. Preaching the Word, declaring God’s truth undiluted and uncensored is 100% scriptural, the only hope for a world on its way to hell, and our primary responsibility on Earth as Christians. Romans 10:14,15 : “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? ...” We know people need to hear the Word, but how will they unless we employ some means (methods) of getting that message to them?
What you’re missing is that this is not what is being debated here. The phrase in question one more time: “We will do anything short of sin to introduce people to God.” What would you call door-to-door evangelism? Isn’t that a method to “introduce people to God”? I believe door-knocking can be a very effective method. Is it supported by scripture? Sort of. Acts 20:20 says Paul taught publicly “and from house to house” but in context he was speaking to other believers.
At this point I’m going to flat out say you’re wrong about the account in Acts 5. Ananias and Sapphira were killed because they lied to God (v4) there’s not even a remote indication that it was because they were unsaved people coming to a gathering of saved people. I can’t express in this comment block how ridiculous it is to suggest that God doesn’t want unsaved people coming to church. It’s not a criminal visiting a police station, it’s a sick and dying person visiting a hospital!!
Furthermore, and more to the point of this debate, where is a worship service described in the Bible? Paul tells us it should be orderly in 1 Corinthians, but is there anything more specific given in the scriptures?
Should Christians antagonize unbelievers? Don’t you think there are some negative perceptions of the Christian life that simply aren’t true? Don’t you think it would be helpful to eliminate those?
If the early Christians “simply declared that men were sinners…etc” why do we ever preach anything else?
In regard to Titus 2:7, if we were to use it context it’s talking about how older women should teach the younger to act, but I’ll humor you, it’s a good list for all Christians. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not being sarcastic when I ask these questions: 1. How is the church today supposed to show a pattern of good works? (wouldn’t that be with methods of some kind?) 2. How does any method “short of sin” (remember that’s the topic here) conflict with doctrine, integrity, reverence or incorruptibility? 3. If we’re to apply this passage to church methodology, “having nothing evil to say of you” fit in? Is it the world having nothing evil to say about the church?
Comment by Eric - Jun 25, 2009 @ 07:02 PM
Eric,
you’re right about Ananias and Saphira, I jumped to application way too quickly. The result of what God did, however was put fear in people who were not believers. They knew that the church was serious about holiness.
Also, the sick needing a hospital is wrong. They’re not sick, they’re dead. They don’t need a hospital, they need spiritual resurrection. They need life. And they are criminals, just like we were. I John 3:4 says that sin is “transgression of the law”.
I’ll get to the rest of your questions tomorrow…i gotta run. Thanks for the thought provoking conversation.
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 25, 2009 @ 07:48 PM
Wiiliam, you’re right they are spiritually dead, but we have the cure for that and we need to bring them to it!
I’m sure you’ll have some more valid points to bring up, but I don’t think this discussion is really going any where, and it’s really not productive use of my time anymore. We really should all be doing tasks God has put before us, rather than arguing about how to do them.
I wish you all the best as you endeavor to reach people with the gospel.
Comment by Eric - Jun 26, 2009 @ 02:58 PM
Eric, I had just written a response and lost it! I’ll try again, but this time it will be shorter
Q. Furthermore, and more to the point of this debate, where is a worship service described in the Bible? Paul tells us it should be orderly in 1 Corinthians, but is there anything more specific given in the scriptures?
A. There is no litergy prescribed for worship. But whatever we do, it must be in accordance with God’s character. It must be reverent! Listen to Matt Redman’s song: “Facedown” That’s the attitude of worship we must have and all of the worship should reflect that.
Q. Should Christians antagonize unbelievers? Don’t you think there are some negative perceptions of the Christian life that simply aren’t true? Don’t you think it would be helpful to eliminate those?
A. Of course not. My point is, the gospel message is already antagonistic to the sinner by itself. If we have a bad name as Christians, then we need to repent of our sins and start living like Christians again. But guess what? They still won’t like us. They didn’t like Daniel either!
Q. If the early Christians “simply declared that men were sinners…etc” why do we ever preach anything else?
A. Because Christians need to hear the whole counsel of God. Unbelievers need to hear the gospel or else the rest of it won’t make sense until they’re saved.
Q. How is the church today supposed to show a pattern of good works? (wouldn’t that be with methods of some kind?)
A. Just be obedient to God’s Word. You don’t need methods, just be what you’re supposed to be under the Holy Spirit’s control.
Q. How does any method “short of sin” (remember that’s the topic here) conflict with doctrine, integrity, reverence or incorruptibility?
A. It doesn’t. But the original poster is assuming that his methods are short of sin. Just because there isn’t a verse that says: “Thou shalt not use pop rock music and street slang in thy church services” doesn’t mean that doing so is anything short of sin. The attitude of trying to be more acceptable to the world, is a sinful attitude which produces such methods.
Q. If we’re to apply this passage to church methodology, “having nothing evil to say of you” fit in? Is it the world having nothing evil to say about the church?
A. The point of that passage is that the world cant say anything evil about us that’s true! They’re not going to like us anyway even when we’re being holy, honest, kind, loving, etc… Jesus was all that and more in perfection, and they still hated him. The biggest accusations against Christians is we are hypocritical and judgmental. Well, then we need to be Christlike and not be those things, but the world will still say those things because our Bible makes judgments against their way of life and we will not always live up to our calling perfectly.
Comment by William Dudding - Jun 26, 2009 @ 07:43 PM